CAPE WEDDING VENUE DUMPS LESBIAN COUPLE
For straight couples only: The Kilcairn farm wedding venue
An engaged lesbian couple have been left humiliated by a Western Cape wedding venue that told them to go somewhere else because they won’t host same-sex weddings.
Leanne Brown-Waterson and her partner Christelle approached the Kilcairn farm wedding venue in the Riebeek Valley, near Wellington, last month brimming with enthusiasm for their upcoming nuptials.
They were initially welcomed and on the 2nd of March met with Kilcairn manager Cara King at the venue. The couple fell in love with the beautiful location and were sent a contract by Kilcairn with a confirmed wedding date of 17 January 2015.
But Kilcairn’s promises of “beautiful scenery and serene atmosphere” are, it seems, only available to heterosexual people.
Ten days later, Brown-Waterson received an e-mail from an apologetic King that reads: “Unfortunately I have to share with you some bad news. The owners of the farm have asked me to let you know that they are not willing to host same-sex marriages here on the farm.”
She added that, “I hope that you will understand that this is not something I have control over.”
The news shattered the couple’s excitement. “It was very hard. It was belittling,” Brown-Waterson told Mambaonline.
“It’s embarrassing and very disheartening to go through the whole process and then be told that it’s not on any more like this.”
She said: “It’s the first time that I’ve ever been discriminated against. It’s a reality check that people’s attitudes haven’t adjusted much in the country.”
Brown-Waterson was not only outraged that she and her partner had been blatantly discriminated against, but also about the way it was done. “The owners should have had the balls to phone us and tell us what the story is… instead they sent me a one liner.”
Mambaonline contacted King, who supplied us with the contact details of Kilcairn’s owner, identified only as Andre. We called him twice, sent an SMS and left a voicemail message but had no response.
Refusing to provide services to someone on the basis of their sexual orientation is illegal in South Africa under both the Constitution and the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act.
Mambaonline suggested that Brown-Waterson contact the SA Human Right Commission or lay a complaint with an Equality Court.
In the meantime, she confirmed that the couple have found another venue that is more than willing to host their wedding ceremony. “We’re very happy with the new venue. It’s smaller and closer to people and also more affordable.”
Brown-Waterson added that she and her partner have had to move on from the embarrassing and deeply unfair incident.
“I don’t want our wedding to be marred by this,” she said, “but South Africa is a democratic country and we are moving positively forward – and they need to move with the rest of us.”
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This is sad, me and my partner are also looking at venues in the Cape, and we really liked this one. Thanks for the heads-up, so we won’t waste our time and money on this one.
Hello, I am a photographer working in Cape Town, and if you are looking for someone to capture your happy day, please do consider me. Love, Anthea
wow. really? worst way to advertise honey.
actually it might be have more impact on them if many more gay couples tried to book the venue….if they turned you all away eventually they’d realise just how much money they’ll be missing out on, and if that’s what it takes to get them to move even slightly towards rethinking their ways then it would be a good thing….
It’s not the money, honey. If people have a deep religious belief, please respect that.
Go and rate their crappy prejudiced venue on their Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/Kilcairn
Hi Riaan, it seems their Facebook page has been deactivated..
they are still on Pinterest http://www.pinterest.com/kilcairn/
Pintrest also down now… Google+ Page still up 🙂 https://plus.google.com/108203117780951251870/
Yes Cara…you have controllover it!! You as venue coordinator should have known what he feelingso of the owners are on the hosting of a gay wedding or function.
Not necessarily: it’s illegal to NOT allow gay weddings. If wedding planners attempt to find out about feelings outside of what is reequired by law, they are tacitly endorsing the rights of owners to discriminate.
Gay, Lesbian, who cares, you have the individual right to be who you want to be. BUT forcing this venue to accept your marriage even if it goes against the owners strong ethical or religious beliefs makes YOU the discriminatory one. How dare all of YOU force your beliefs on someone else, just because YOU are mad that they wont accept yours? STOP BEING PETTY! The world is not against you.. so they do not approve of same sex marriages (Not everyone has to!) Its their PRIVATE land, they can do with their land what ever the hell they want. just like YOU may marry who ever the hell YOU WANT! Its disgusting the way you people act when you dont get your way.. you want people to accept you into society, but when you dont get YOUR way you throw tantrums and belittle their business. how dare you? I respect you for wanting to marry the same sex, but i EQUALLY respect the owners of this farm for standing up for what they also believe in. So you got offended – big woop.. count your losses, and move on and find a venue that would accept your beliefs.. and remember that not everyone HAS to accept your beliefs, but you also have the same right not to accept theirs…
The manager was absolutely professional and I commend him greatly for his email.
Are you saying that any company offering a service may refuse that service on a prejudicial basis? That means that any company should be perfectly able, according to you, to deny a service to people because of the colour of their skin, or their sexual orientation, or their religion, or whether they have a limb missing or a speech impediment?
Yes, gay, lesbian, Buddhist, Toaist, African, Taiwanese, Monogamous, Polyamorous, Bare-footed Hippie, it doesn’t matter who wants to get married to whom. But if a company is offering themselves as a venue for wedding ceremonies, turning away clients for bigoted reasons is not only against the law, it is unethical. The couple in the article have expressed the unfairness that they have experienced and that is the crux of the matter. If the proprietor has an issue with sexuality, they have no business being in the business of marriage. The resultant attack on them may not be justified in the way that it has unfolded but it is warranted. Nobody should be discriminated for they way they are if they are not actively being an arsehole. The proprietors of this establishment have not responded to the press nor did were they professional in their dealing with the couple. So your statement is unwarranted. If a company turned you down because, for example, you didn’t drive a Porsche, I would presume that you’d feel equally disappointed and let down and belittled. No organisation should be allowed to do that.
Bit vehement a reply but I SO totally agree with you. This has been blown all out of ptoportion. Who cares if the owners are bigoted? Move on and worry about the many far more important issues around you.
I really don’t like people with red hair. I mean, REALLY don’t like them. They gross me out. Especially when they brush their hair in public. Yuck. People with red hair go against everything I stand for as person. They can’t be trusted. I would totally not let a person with red hair get married at my wedding venue, because it goes against my moral beliefs. I mean, they don’t have souls, right? It’s a private venue, I should be able to disregard the laws of the country and then be defended for doing whatever I want to do, even though it propagates hate and drags down a minority group. I mean, all redheads should also be segregated from us “normal” people and/or put into concentration camps. To keep them safe, right? And what I stand for as a blonde is waaaaay more important and more valid and more real and more tangible than anything a redhead could stand for. And nothing I say or do could ever offend or oppress anyone EVER. Right? Really, all the redheads just need to get over the fact that blondes, brunettes and skinheads treat them like lesser humans. They’re so touchy!
If you read the entire article you would have read that they did find a new venue which they love and that they have moved on and don’t want this experience to mire their wedding.
All t hey have done is voice their experience….
this is such a simple response its a shame you actually put thought into this. so what your saying is that if you start a busienss you don jnot have to consider the law and act within it. strange how they are not upfront with their prejudices, clearly that would be bad. Never try strike it on your own, your clrearly not built for it.
It is so sad for every one. Don’t everybody have a right to their opinions? The manager should have known better in the first place. Secondly WHY should everybody change their believes to suit gay people? I have many gay friends but they respect my opinion as I do theirs. We do not have to agree on everything, that is our right. Personally I think it is so unfair for everyone to want to close down a venue just because a gay couple was told that the owner do not want to have gay weddings at his venue. DON’T start with the law… it only suit many of you for your believes but what about the rest? They have time to look for a wedding venue as their wedding is only next year, they should respect the owners views as well. It is a free country.
As I responded to the commenter above, it’s not that everybody can’t have their own views and opinions but that, as a service-provider, a company that is offering a marriage venue cannot (well, should not) discriminate unfairly on who it chooses as its clientele. Granted there may be a bazzillion organisations in the world that refuse to do business with people below a certain income level, or who follow a particular religion, or have a deforminity, or a particular lifestyle, but that doesn’t make it right. Individuals can keep their prejudices and, so long as they’re are not actively harming anybody, they would be let be. Organisations do not have that luxury; as a people, we will oppose any organisation that unfairly discriminates against us. And by us, I refer to all human people.
My partner and I had a similar experience while searching for a wedding venue. We were turned away by Whale Cottage in Hermanus. This type of discrimination is nothing new, though. Weeks before we had been approached by a waiter in the Slug and Lettuce in Greenpoint, requesting that we not kiss or show each other affection as it was making other patrons uncomfortable. Discrimination is alive and well in Cape Town.
We must speak out whenever it happens, even if its just a Facebook comment or a report on hellopeter.com
Dear Michelle
I do not recall any enquiry from you re using our guest house as a wedding venue – we only offer accommodation, and do not have a large enough space for events and functions. We certainly do not ascertain the genders of our guests, and welcome all, without prejudice. You are most welcome to contact me at hermanus@whalecottage.com
HI Michelle,
I am the manager at the Slug & Lettuce in Greenpoint. I am slightly concerned with your comments about our patrons asking a staff member to speak to you regarding something, as our staff will never ask customers to not show affection in public.
Could you kindly contact me with regards to this, as I would like to investigate.
Regards,
Ashley
hussargrillgp@telkomsa.net
Morning Michelle
As the GM of the Slug and Lettuce in Greenpoint I find this very odd. My staff would never tell a customer to leave due to shows of affection. I find this quite strange as why was this not brought up on the night with the manager on duty. The only time a staff member would ask a customer to leave is if the level of affection was inappropriate , i.e. gropping in public. Even then the staff member would have spoken to you before and asked you to refrain yourself from doing it. If you continued I do understand that the staff member would have then asked you to leave. But regards to the kissing and affection to one another, I find it a little odd. You are more then welcome to come and see me and speak to me in person to clarify this and show me which staff member asked you to leave. I will then conduct a investigation into this as well as view the camera footage that we have in order to get a better picture.
Awaiting your reply.
Matthew
And I’m sure Michelle will do so straight away as you sound so open, believing and ready to assume the customer is always right, rather than thinly veiled accusations of lying about the incident.
Evening Moonica
I am not implying that at all. If the incident in question did occur I will gladly discipline the staff member concerned as this establishment does not show prejudice to any person what so ever. I am not accusing anybody about lying about the incident. My management style is if somebody has a problem with my establishment they are more than welcome to come and speak to me, or my management, and we can sort the problem out to the customers satisfaction. I welcome Michelle back at any time to discuss this with me or even phone me so that this issue can be resolved.
Really Moonica. Get over yourself. Well replied Michael.
Suggest we commence battle by flooding their FB and Tripadvisor accordingly. Let’s close down this nasty, bigoted little operation.
Yes, they’ve deactivated their twitter and FB accounts. Must have had a lot of traffic!
Instead, email them on info@kilcairn.co.za and also share your concerns on the FB pages of the three businesses linked to Kilcairn, namely Two Food Fundi’s, Desiree Dippenaar Photography and Melissa van Zyl Photography.
I have asked for them to remove my detaila from their site. Thank you for letting me know! Desiree
Be the change you want to see in the world. Judging and harassing people for their choices, even though we don’t agree with them, is not the world we want.
I’ll leave that up to you, Stefan. We need good, kind and thoughtful people like you in the world.
For me, I’m going to harangue and harass the hell out of Kilcairn. I’m going to call them out, show them up and embarrass the living daylights out of them.
Too many people have died. Too many lives have been ruined by jumped up little neo Nazis like them.
Time to take them on and take them out! 😉
Well said.
So we can’t be intolerant of intolerance? Stuff that! How is this different from turning away the couple because of their skin colour? They should be called out on it and people can make up their minds on whether to continue supporting them or not.
Yes, leave your comments, and then they ban you from their site!!!! Happened to me and and a few friends that posted our (disgusted) comments!!!
Their social media profiles appear to have been taken down. Don’t forget that by typing “Kilcairn” into Google, you can review the establishment by clicking on the appropriate link on the right hand side of the page. They’re obviously trying to hide from public outrage over this silly decision.
How awful is this. (I am a wedding planner and my name is Cara, but this is not me). It is totally disgraceful that they allowed this to happen. Everyone deserves the right to be happy and get married where ever they please. I am so sorry this happened to you ladies.
To Leanne and Michelle. I am truly sorry to hear about the humiliation of being turned down by this particular venue. Luckily for you, there are enough compassionate and accepting people out there at other venues who will embrace you and the love you share for each other. My partner and I were married last year May and had a wonderful wedding at a venue in Durbanville near Cape Town. They welcomed us with open arms. Sadly, we were turned down last year November by a Guesthouse in a nearby small town, because we are Gay. We were overnighting to pick up our son from a wilderness camp. I have a courtcase coming up next month in the Equality Court against this guesthouse, and the Human Rights Commission has been assisting me in this regard. I would strongly advise that people like you use the tools available to us as the LGBT community and take them to task on what they have done. Only together can we put a stop to the biggotry and hate. We need to make an example of venues such as this, and let it be known that we won’t back down and simply accept this poor treatment, like we are second grade citizens.
Agreed 100% My mom married her partner of 20 years 4 years ago after gay and lesbian marriage was legalised, and the thought of this happening to her, and how hurt she’d be, saddens me immensely. You don’t need to be gay or lesbian to be hurt by this kind of prejudice. You just have to be human. Good luck with your case.
I think this venue should be made aware of this similar incident in the UK – http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2424983/Christian-B-B-owners-refused-gay-couple-close-business.html
Sorry, I meant Leanne and Christelle
I discovered that any Home Affairs official has the right to not handle same sex marriages on religious and moral grounds.
So Caledon will NOT handle these.
If a government department can’t enforce it, who will?
Hi Paul, this is not entirely correct. While individual officials can refuse to officiate a same-sex wedding each Home Affairs office MUST have someone available who will do so. While individual officials can be exempt, the office must still offer the service. Please do e-mail us details of any incidents that you experienced and we will follow up. info@mambaonline.com
As the ex editor and publisher of My Wedding Day, the first bridal magazine in South Africa to feature gay and lesbian weddings, news like this really gets my blood boiling. Cant believe that there are still people who live in the dark ages.
No one can dispute the fact that there was discrimination. The issue therefore turns towards finding whether the discrimination was justifiable or not. I will play the devil’s advocate (it’ll get me a lot of hate, probably), but I will argue that a private individual is cannot be forced to perform acts that disagree with his, amongst others, religious, cultural or other convictions. Much as we cannot force a Catholic priest to perform a gay marriage or a Muslim shopkeeper to sell alcohol to atheists at his shop, so we cannot force property owner to make his property available for an act that his, say, religious convictions disagree with.
Yes, it is bigoted to discriminate. But going the legal route about it in this instance is misdirected. It is far more plausible to let the markets take care of it: if he is willing to only bank on heterosexual business, then let at least the LGBT community know about it and avoid him. The loss of business will be on him.
Yes Uncle Jay, I agree. Just as Apartheid was centred on the religious belief that God sanctioned Whites to seperate blacks, forcing them into their so called homelands, demeaning them and taking away any shred of dignity in the process, these people should be allowed to humiliate the LGBT community, using their religion as their sword. I think that your comment is incredibly short sighted. How is it any different for them to turn away a black couple? If people were allowed to use their so called religious convictions to justify their actions, based on old testament rule, we would have a very cruel and uncivilised society on our hands with no rights for woman and slavery being the natural condition, among other things.
Thing is Ballard, Uncle Jay is not suggesting we force gay people to live in Homelands, just that for certain specific people, they disagree with the notion of same-sex marriage for whatever reason, and so on their property, they have chosen not to host same-sex weddings. The thing with tolerance is that it isn’t only for things we ourselves agree with or believe in, it’s also allowing others to have their own views… and tolerating them as we would wish to be tolerated.
I have noticed it before, that many who themselves wish to be tolerated, not suffer prejudice and so on, are themselves incredibly intolerant of views that differ from their own. If what these particular people are doing is illegal, then the couple in question have a right to pursue that, should they wish to. If not, well, it’s a personal choice. It’s unprofessional, obviously, and financially silly, turning away paying customers, but there it is. Free will.
Let me start out by saying that I believe that same sex weddings/marriages should be treated exactly as any other. I also agree that the way that the farm owners handled this is absolutely terrible. However, I do want to ask, genuinely hoping for an answer rather than an attack, what I think may be a rather contentious question.
In a democratic society, do the farm owners, or any other business owner, not have the democratic right to choose those with whom they will do business? Is this not into the space of their democratic rights?
In the comments above, many have stated their choice not to do business with this establishment, and that is unquestionably their right. However, there also seems a strong desire to punish them by putting them out of business for their choice. Furthermore, many have decided to tar others who do business with this establishment with the same brush, without any mentioned research into the same-sex marriage views of these other businesses. (N0, I don’t know these people, or do business with them.)
Can human rights be promoted by the denial of human rights?
Robin, what if the owner decided to refuse service to people of color? Should that also be their right? Or to disabled people, or whoever their beliefs tells them to discriminate against. Or is sexual orientation the only valid reason to discriminate against someone?
Hi Karen. Thanks for the response. My query here, is where do we draw the line for human rights, and what standards should we be using to draw it? Please believe me, I have no agenda here, just questions for which I am trying to find answers. I believe that situations such as these are currently being dealt with in a very simplistic manner, without really digging deep into the full meaning and value of human rights. Mainly because they are really only dealt with during the course of emotionally volatile instances such as this.
To answer you more directly, I don’t believe that there are any valid reasons to discriminate against anyone, ever. I do however, believe that the Constitution gives the right to all, to not only believe and speak freely, but also to act according to their own set of morals and ethics. Yes, it also specifies that this must not be done in a “hateful” manner – whether in speech or in action. I agree with this too. However, the perception of hate speech/action can, in many instances, be extremely subjective – both individually and in general society. Again, the higher the emotion, the greater the perception of hatefulness.
The fact of the matter is, or should be, that all people have choice about with whom they wish to do business. Their reason/s for wanting, or not wanting to do business with someone need not even be made public – and in terms of hate speech/actions are generally better off not being made public. The fact of the matter is, that any business still does have the right to refuse service without providing a reason.
Let me play with your scenario / question a bit. If we say that business owners do not have the choice of living their genuinely held convictions – whether religious or otherwise, then we also have to say the following. We have to force all Muslim restaurants to serve alcohol, or at least allow alcohol to be consumed (many, if not most, don’t). We have to force all Jewish butchers to sell pork. I’m sure that you can think of many more examples. In effect, we have to continually erode more and more of our human rights. I say “our” human rights, rather than their human rights purposely. While it may not seem to matter while it suits us, and fits with our beliefs, etc., it does ultimately matter, and will come round to bite us in the butt.
I don’t share the beliefs of the people involved in this instance (the farm couple), but if I am to uphold the Constitution, I must allow them not only their belief, but also the actions that flow from their ethic, and then of course, the consequences of those actions. (lost business, etc.) What I cannot allow, is for me to discriminate against them, because I do not share their beliefs, or agree with their actions.
What are your firmly held, beliefs that others may not agree with? Would you stand for them? Act for them? I’m sure you would, and rightly so. We must all have that freedom, or none of us have that freedom.
Robin, I believe in the right to equality and the right to dignity, which is why the great minds who set up our constitution had the foresight to include everyone in it, including Gays and Lesbians. Using your religious convictions to justify “discrimination”, and yes, let’s call a spade a spade, it is discrimination, would lead to the “anarchy that you hint at. The people at this guesthouse are following an Old Testament Christian belief system. We would have no rights for women, slavery as the natural condition, people put to death for eating pork or working on the sabbath. Where do you draw the line, and what is more harmful? Allowing a loving couple who have the money to pay for a wedding venue to use any venue they wish, or allowing people to continue to discriminate and humiliate in the process. At the end of the day, it is illegal, plain and simple!
Goodness. Very well said.
Let me be clear. Very well said Robin.
Hi Robin
I do get what you are saying and I do agree that discrimination and sabotage is not the correct way.
I am just concerned that eating meat and drinking alchol is placed in the same context as same-sex couples wanting to get married. I think a differentiation needs to be made for religous custom versus the sexual orientation of a person (the way the are born) and debate is the only way to get to the detail of such matters.
All that is required is that when you run a business you do not discriminate. on any of the grounds listed in the constitution It’s perfectly fine for a restaurant to not sell alcohol or pork, as long as they don’t just sell it to some people and not others. If a venue wants to run a public business they have to abide by the constitution. No one is forcing them to run a public business, if they wanted to pick and choose their clients they could choose to be affiliated with a church and only make it available to members of the congregation or something like that.
Thanks for sharing that perspective Robin. Some food for thought there.
Sounds exactly like our wedding venue hunt. We were confirmed and then turned down by The Stone Cellar,Heidelberg, Gauteng due to owners religious beliefs. We were also turned down by Tres Jolie in Ruimsig JHB. After facebook and Hello Peter complaints Tres Jolie changed their tune and we then turned them down. We also experienced the same rejection with multiple photographers. Diagusting how people like this still exist. Our money and love is no different to any other!
Ladies, please make mention of your new venue.. They deserve some recognition for future couples to approach with confidence.
Agreed! I hope they share the name of the venue. It’d be great to keep it in mind when that special time comes in my life!
Right of admission reserved. Thnx Bai.
I wish we could all just accept that everyone is different, and everyone has a right to celebrate their love.
Shame on this venue!
I am disgusted and saddened by this. As a photographer who has captured same sex marriages at beautiful venues in the Western Cape, I can’t believe there is actually a venue that has turned a couple away because they are same sex 🙁 I do believe that venues like this should be boycotted, and take comfort in the knowledge that this type of discrimination by venues is few and far between.
I will certainly be reposting this on my Facebook page, and if I were the 2 photographers mentioned affiliated with this venue, I’d disassociate myself immediately.
Dit is altyd hartseer as mense so onsensitief optree. Ek self het al die wonderlikste troues gedoen – wat ‘n wonderlike ervaring was dit nie. Anders as wat julle dink – trek Kilcairn ongelooflik baie voordeel uit al hierdie bohaai wat opgeskop word. Daar is in hierdie tipe besigheid geen slegte publisiteit nie !!
Please they must not leave them go sue them take them to court
What has happened is very sad and it is very unusual for something like this to happen in the Riebeek Valley, as there are many same sex couples in the area. However, while one feels outraged not only by the owner of Kilcairn’s decision and view, but also by them not having the balls to speak to the couple, they have every right to their own choices – irrespective of how abhorrent we may find those views.
Voice your anger and frustration, but to attack a catering company and photographers who have done work at Kilcairn as suggested by Christopher Lowe , is just as mean, short sighted and shitty as the behavior of the venue’s owners. Get over your mob mentality Christopher and direct your anger where it should be – don’t hurt more innocent people in the name of your kangaroo justice. I’ve used that catering company at a function as have many other people I know, and they are not bigoted idiots. I don’t know the photographers, but I doubt they share the same views as the venue owners.
Hello Cathy
Many thanks for this- We value your reply and thanks for standing up for us when no one else even seemed interested in our side of the story. We as the owners of Two Food Fundies ( Kilcairn’s Catering Provider ) are totally appalled that we as well as some of our partners are now being attacked on this matter- We have never turned anyone away because of skin colour, religious views, or for being homo-sexual or straight etc. We have always treated people with respect and WE are now being descrimated against for being listed at venues. If a venue, event co-ordinator or company has certain rules, regulations – it doesn’t mean that we agree or disagree with anything that they decide- We will continue catering at Kilcairn as we are running a business here. Not some blog trying to out service providers and other affiliates for what they believe or dont believe- GROW UP and make sure of you facts before you attack people and their businesses. We believe that everyone is responsible for their own lives and you determine your own happiness and success in life… We have many friends who are gay who we love dearly… We are in a industry full of gay and lesbian professionals. so please if you want to post something- rather get your facts straight than to thumb suck when you have nothing better to do – Two Food Fundies Team
‘Some of my best friends are (insert minority group here)’ is the easiest way to worm out of accusations of prejudice.
The argument goes that you cannot be a racist if some of the people you hang around with are black, or you can’t be a misogynist because you love your mother. It’s patently absurd to think your actions or beliefs can be absolved by using such a simplistic escape route.
You say: “We have many friends who are gay who we love dearly… We are in a industry full of gay and lesbian professionals.”
If this is indeed true, then this type of behaviour should be abhorrent to you (let alone illegal), and make you think twice about the type of person or company that you are in business with and spur you on to do something positive about it. But no. Not only are you in business with them, you proclaim loud and proud that “We will continue catering at Kilcairn as we are running a business here.” AND you continue to promote this venue on your own website (incidentally, the ONLY venue that you promote).
“it doesn’t mean that we agree or disagree with anything that they decide”. Really?? Forgetting for a moment that we are talking about bigots here, continuing in business and promoting a business that performs ILLEGAL acts and trying to justify it as “we are running a business” reeks of naiveté or arrogance.
Whilst you do have the right to conduct business with whoever you choose, and you have clearly done so, it is ironic that you should now complain that “you are appalled” that your decision on this matter is being attacked and that you are being discriminated against.
Your indignant protestations of innocence ring very shallow. An old adage springs to mind: “You lie down with dogs and you get up with fleas.”
You could still redeem yourself, but somehow I doubt we will see that.
Well said Two Food Fundies
Really? Suggesting that you take someone to court for being a narrow minded biggot? Shun them, yes. Name and shame them, yes. But take them to court for having their own views ? Get over yourself. I have a little self catering apartment and a few weeks ago I told someone I couldn’t assist them with accommodation. I didn’t give a reason and had I been asked I would have lied and said we were booked. The real reason was that I looked this person up on various social media and by the mean things she said and did on social media, I made a decision that I wanted nothing to do with her. I’d have bit said this to her as I have no reason to hurt her feelings. However I discriminated against her based on my own set of principals. While we may find anti-gay behavior and views dreadful, we are all still permitted to have our own views. So avoiding people who are bigoted is understandable, but taking them to court is just stupid.
To Leanne & Christelle
My husband & I are Wedding DJ’s and would love to help you guys out if you do not have anyone doing your music yet!
contact us on 0832749537
While I feel sorry for these ladies and acknowledge that they have been discriminated against, I think it’s also wrong to lash out at the establishment. The owners of the establishment can choose to do business with whomever they wish. Also, just because our law states same sex marriages are legal, it does not mean everyone must now embrace it. These owners are still entitled to their own beliefs, opinions and ethics. Slandering them publicly is not right.
Dit is nou wat jy noem tipiese afrikaanse NG Gemeente mentaliteit!!! Ek is 40 jaar oud en het grootgeword onder (in die?) NG regime. Die van julle wat ook in die laat 90’tigs Sondag na Sondag katkesasie klas moes bywoon sal weet presies wat ek bedoel. Daai dominees het meer skade as goed gedoen!!! Nee, ek is nie gay nie. En ja, ek’s trots Afrikaans. Ek het baie gay / bruin / swart / atheist / pagan / wedergebore ens. pelle. En ek love almal van hulle. En jy meneer eienaar, Andre Ruggraatlose Jellievis, moet jou kop uit jou hol uittrek en bykom hoor!!! Ons lewe in die 21ste eeu. Nie meer in die vetlampie tyd nie. Drol!!!
A great venue for the next mcop party…….. with the owner in a sling
email him on
info@kilcairn.co.za
Hello All, Leanne here (the one in the article): People have completely lost focus of what the intention behind the article was. The intention was to address and highlight the fact that people out there still have not changed their attitude and perceptions towards gay and lesbian couples when it comes to same sex marriages. And furthermore, to highlight the fact that discrimination in our democratic country is very real. There are innocent parties that are being seriously affected by peoples comments on facebook, twitter and other social media. TWO parties in particular being TWO FOOD FUNDIES and CARA. Two Fundies are a small stand-alone business that cater for wedding venues, corporates, once-of events etc. Cara rents the Function venue from the Owners of Kilcairn, and has to abide by the Owners Terms and Conditions. Both parties are receiving hate mail, threats via correspondence and telephone, and are being asked to explain themselves to the public. This was not the intention of the article and had this been the case I would not have volunteered to divulge what happened. Both are an innocent parties and being lambasted by the public in itself is a criminal act . Two Food Fundies are in fact the hero’s in all of this as they stepped up after the Owners of Kilcairn let us down. It was Two Food Fundies which found us another venue, they are catering for us at our wedding and they are assisting us with the décor. I can only sing there praises and the public need to know this. The public also need to be made aware of the fact that there are ways and means of dealing with issues, but sending hate mail is not one of them. The boundaries are being blurred, people have lost focus and all the publicity is having a negative effect on all innocent parties. All parties are losing business, all are in an emotional state, including us and this needs to be fixed very quickly. What one would expect is a public apology addressed to Two Food Fundies and all other innocent parties that have been affected by this. Thank you, Leanne
Hardly innocent if they continue to give the venue’s stance their tacit approval as they do in their Facebook posting where they say: ” We will continue catering at Kilcairn as we are running a business here. “
Clearly you aren’t a business owner. If you choose not to do business with anyone that has views on something you disagree with, you won’t bd in business for very long.
Clearly? Actually I am a business owner, for over 25 years (long enough for you?) and yes, we have turned away business where we found it distasteful, and found that in doing this, the business has actually increased. Morals and ethics in business do count it seems.
Dean. You missed my point completely I think – my post was a reply rather than a statement. I also own a business or two (also for many years) and while one does turn business away where there are potential major issues, you can’t turn away everyone you don’t agree with. Yes if people are completely distasteful one does walk away but you can’t do it willy. The reply was about Two Food Fundies continues to do business with Kilcairn. While TFF may not like or agree with the owners choice about not hosting weddings for same sex couples, they (TFF) are professional (they are – I’ve dealt with them) and they provide catering for couples – at this or any other venue. Should TFF discriminate against other couples wanting to use their services at this venue just because the owners of the venue are bigoted twits? I think not. They are after all working for the couples (TFF are independent of the venue) and not for the venue.
“…and yes, we have turned away business where we found it distasteful, and found that in doing this, the business has actually increased.” I’m on nobody’s side here, but this sounds like something the owner of Kilcairn could have said to justify his actions as well?
So it sounds like the owners are the idiots, and deserve all the flak they get.
Good morning,
I am proudly gay and share a beautiful love with my partner. We also approached a wedding venue in the Magaliesburg/Harties area called MOTOZI LODGE. At first Laura was very helpful and friendly, sending me information on the venue, menues. etc. She called me, e-mailed me, but when I asked her whether they do host gay weddings were told! Sorry, gay weddings are a bit of a GREY area for them. It was extremely dissapointing as this was a venue that we thought would make our special day even more perfect.
Shocking and totally unacceptable! As a professional Photographer – I would love to do your photography for your wedding – together with my assistant. My offer is to do this at a discount of 50%. Please contact me at wilkins@gem.co.za if this interests you.
we have actually been to this venue before to sign up as a location for the film industry.
extremely rude people, horrible attitude and no respect.
no wonder they treated you this way.
there are way better places out there, and the best thing is to make sure all the gay people know about this, lets be honest that is 80% of our population.
the less people supporting venues and places like this the better!! support the gay friendly venue’s as they deserve our money!
LOL this thread has just become a advertising block for wedding suppliers….
I know. Like tow truck drivers descending upon the scene of a fresh accident.
We have actually been doing marketing for Kilcairn farm wedding venue in the Riebeek Valley. We will most definitely take this up with them.
How about rather refusing to do business with them? They’re clearly homophobic, and probably racist too. That’s what will happen after centuries of inbreeding.
Suck it up. If they don”t want you there for religious reasons then go somewhere else. It is just as bad to criticise at people for their religious beliefs. If you are not happy with their beliefs then you are just as guilty. Its a free country and everyone has a right to choose. They chose not to host your wedding. Grow up please
Bravo Stuart, I agree 100%
Some of the comments on here err on the slanderous side, not to mention extremely vindictive. Suck it up, up, grow a pair and move on. That is the beauty of the Western Cape, you have LOADS of venues to choose from. To go on this vindictive hateful crusade, spitting nothing but hatred and negativity….What GOOD can come from it? Sheesssh……..
Your ignorance is showing. Firstly it has nothing to do with religion – nowhere was religion mentioned. Whilst it is a free country, that does not mean that everyone “has a right to choose” to break the law. “The South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) has confirmed that it is illegal for wedding venues to turn away customers because they are gay or lesbian.”
Suck that up.
No you are actually the ignorant one. It is due to their religious beliefs that they chose not to host gay weddings. Check your facts before lambasting and insulting others.
Dean, see the comment by G below. It seems the only laws being broken in this drama are those of harassment. If you want to be allowed to live according to your beliefs without persecution, you need to be willing to allow others the same privilege.
precisely my point below. well said
Stefan, Thanks for the headsup, but it seems not.
Stuart, it was also those claiming to be acting on their religious beliefs that moved black people in the 60’s and denied then their rights to function as human beings. Clearly you have never felt what it feels like to be discriminated against. I was denied a career in the 80’s due to me being Gay. I am Christian, and no person will tell me that this is what is preached by a loving God. people interpret the bible to suit them, so maybe we should adhere 100% and start stoning people as well? This venue needs to state that right of admission is reserved and clearly state that they do not host same sex weddings. The constitution protects all of us and needs to be followed all the time, not only when it suits us and our decisions.
The lesbian couple are both acting like such girls!! …oh.
Leviticus 18:22 identifies homosexual sex as an abomination, a detestable sin.
Yes, and Exodus sanctions Slavery as acceptable.
Ladies if I still lived in Cape Town, I would have been proud to host your wedding. Please know that the company who rejected you, are not what society is about anymore.
Good Luck.
I’m a Constitutional Lawyer and wish to correct those who comment from emotion above, or ignorance.
The SA Human Rights Commission recently was approached with the exact same situation as that mentioned in the article above, and in that instance their finding clearly upheld the farmers’ (wedding venue owners) right to hold a religious conviction under Clause 15 of the SA Bill of Rights, when they elected not to have a same-sex marriage on their farm. The couple in question was asked to respect their views on the matter.
That is the essence of associational diversity in a Constitutional Democracy- people have the right to choose not to associate with certain religious views/beliefs /opinions.
This is also in line with the South African Charter on Religious Rights and Freedoms to which almost ALL religions subscribe.
Would be most interested to know what case exactly you are referring to as the same SA Human Rights Commission said this week that it is indeed illegal and that the opposite to what you say actually happened :
“The South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) has confirmed that it is illegal for wedding venues to turn away customers because they are gay or lesbian.
The CEO of the SAHRC, Kayum Ahmed, told Mambaonline on Thursday that the Kilcairn wedding venue’s policy of not hosting same-sex weddings is not acceptable, no matter what the owners’ personal view are.
We have dealt with similar matters where we’ve found in favour of other gay and lesbian couples,” he said. Ahmed also urged LGBT South Africans who have experienced similar discrimination to lay a complaint with the SAHRC, no matter where they are in the country.”
G, I agree 100%, but if any business venue is going to enforce such a measure, based on their religious beliefs, then they should clearly state this in ALL Advertising relating to their venue. It serves no purpose to show any party interested in a making use of a venue all the features, only to advise them later that they are unable to host due to their religious beliefs. Almost the same as the fine print when signing a contract. The way in which this could affect their business, is that any gay person may opt not to attend any function at such venue, and so the message will be passed on and others will no longer book the venue for any function. Remember religion was also used as a basis to prevent black people from being part of the South African society
You are not a Constitutional Lawyer’s backside, only a liar.
I know that this is a problem in the Cape. I have been approached to do photography for all couples and am very willing to do photography for all who wish to get engaged /married etc. One would think in the new SA that this would be a thing of the past, but unfortunately this is not the case. Sorry to hear what has happened to you both.
For many many years from about the 50’s until perhaps the 90’s Kelvin Grove did not allow Jews . To this day I think every Jew knows and remembers this . No-one took them to court though – what could you do – absolutely nothing. However to this day if their name is every mentioned my blood boils.
I totally agree with you. What if the owners are, according to their values and/or beliefs, against homosexuality. Whose rights are more important here. The owners acted in their democratic right to make a decision that is commensurate with their values and are fully entitled to it. Infact, unless this was some kind of a public utility then the owner will be constitutionally wrong. The only wrong thing here is, firstly the manner in which they handled it. I actually struggle to understand how, from purely business perspective, how this business loose customers because it refused to accommodate a same-sex marriage. The assumption here is that there is a unanimous agreement that the owners were wrong in their act – an assumption which can easily be disposed by the fact that the same South Africans themselves are highly polarised on the legality n/or morality of same sex marriages ( never mind the Constitutional stance on the matter). Having disposed the above assumption, doesnt it stand to reason that all those that are strongly against same sex marriage would actually find this place an attractive place for their wedding in the same manner that those who are in favour of it will also, going forward find the new accepting venue attractive. Thats just my view of the matter and I an not taking anyside but just dissecting the matter from another point of view. The question again is whose rights should be protected here.
I know the feeling my wife and i had the same issue with Sha-Mani Lodge in Johannesburg. We looked at the venue and loved it completely. We booked our wedding date and we paid a deposit. A few days later we were told that the owner wants a meeting with us. He then told us that being Gay was against his beliefs and we are not to use this venue and there is no way of convincing him otherwise. He explained that he was molested by a gay man as a child and although he has no ill will towards gays he refuses to let us use that venue. I think he holds a grudge but hey who am I to judge. I hope he is blessed and I thank God I will not be him when he stands before the thrown and is asked why he judged Gods children. I had to wait till the end of the month to get my deposit back and i was mortified. It was the perfect place and my wife and i really loved it but instead had to settle for a venue. We still had the most perfect day.
Thank you G! A sane, level headed person who actually knows the law……
And in an instant, all the haters are gone!
Absolutely love it.
And what exactly do you love? Eventually people get sick and tired of being treated like sub-human scum. We are not willing to sit back and take it over and over and over again. After a lifetime of never ending insults, derogatory innuendo, physical attacks, name calling and abuse you reach a point where you decide enough is enough. We will always be here and we will no longer be quiet. Get used to it. I absolutely love that
I’m with you Charl.
That is so disappointing people still have that worthless mind set! I will make sure none of my Clients goes and uses that venue!
I’ve heard this story so many times before from friends who were trying to find friendly service providers. One couple came very close to not even having a wedding because of all the hate they encountered. I recently started a website called Gay Marry Me with the idea that GAY FRIENDLY service providers can advertise & gay couples can find them without having to be turned down because of someone else’s bigotry.
I personally hate it when people of ANY colour or ANY sexual orientation pull the discrimination card – if someone doesnt agree or like a sexual orientation its their prerogative to decline or say no to something which would make them uncomfortable, just like something may make you uncomfortable.
JUST SAYING!
Pull the discrimination card? Are you serious? And a few generations back a woman wasn’t supposed to voice her opinions in public either, unless sanctioned by a man, thankfully we have moved on. Really easy to dismiss discrimination when it doesn’t affect you. JUST SAYIN
It is ironic that you as a woman say that. I suppose the Woman’s suffrogate that fought for your rights, that you enjoy today, should have also kept their mouths shut about their discrimination. Go read a book why don’t you, woman were also second grade citizens in the past.
I actually looked up this venue and noticed that are listed under a number of sites relating to their venue. One of the listed sites has now delisted them due to their discriminatory practices. Discrimination is wrong full stop. These venues must be exposed and all people need to stop supporting them
If this venue can discriminate against a couple because of sexual orientation then we can use social media to point it out. When you open your doors to the public, be prepared for a reaction when you decide to welcome only parts of the public that you deem worthy. That reaction will inevitably include the wedding planners and caterers that use this venue or keep promoting it. There are many venues to choose from, spend your money somewhere else.
Geez people. Why not just look for another venue from the endless list this province provides? This time ask first if there’s an issue with gay marriage. Interesting reading and I now can scratch one estate off my list for our wedding.
I’m happy about the outcry this is causing this time. It seems that not even a year ago there was a similar incident when a male couple was refused by Diemerskraal Wine Estate in Paarl for having their wedding there. Not sure what the outcome of their complaint to the Equality Court was. I’d suggest to boycot them as well.
I belong to a minority group. I get discriminated against every day because of my skin colour. I get turned away from jobs I am more than qualified for. But I don’t get my panties in a knot, nor will I become a hater. You launch a public outcry against someone who does not succumb to your views of what they should allow? You deride them and their views using all the media channels at your disposal? They still have their dignity for standing by the courage of their convictions. You, however, have done the Gay community a massive disservice by painting everyone as foaming at the mouth revolutionaries. Regardless of how inept the owners were in handling this matter, there is no dignity, or class, in how you have responded and approached this.
We’ll thank goodness they did not try and get married in the Catholic Church.
Does not matter who believe what! If you as a venue owner pays the rent then you can decide what you want to do in your venue. If you want to allow gay marriages you do and if you don’t then you don’t. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER PEOPLE what you do as you pay the rent so you have the choice. People can be so stupid !!
Yes Charl, you can use social media to POINT it out…..Not what has happened here on this website! Many people on this website is liable for legal action against them, they why they carried on!
When I disagree with your conduct or whatever the case may be….how do I handle it? I don’t name and shame you on public websites and try and get people to rally with me! That is just plain childish!! If I think I have a case I take it up with the legal experts. And remember, like many a poster has pointed out….The opposite might also be true of this incident….People who agree with the venue’s point of view might actually respect that they have stood up for what they believe in and even support them more! Are you going to try and stop them too?
Again….Freedom of choice….Freedom of Association…..We have LOTS of freedoms in South Africa…
A wise person once said….Everyone wants to have rights, but no one wants responsibility. Think a minute about this statement.
And yes, by no means, do you not have a valid point….You do! But the way people are carrying on here by being slanderous and vindictive, no good can come of it.
I personally think the couple should have gone straight to the HRCSA of South Africa and not followed this route. And I might even, if I were to be the owner of the venue consider legal action against them for this vindictive campaign they have ignited.
Why have this school yard bully mentality?? Do the grown up thing and see if you have a legal case.
Well in the end it is about the constitution of South Africa. What you can and what you cannot. It is as simple as that. If you run a business you cannot discriminate, no matter what your beliefs are. That is the law. Just as some of you say “stop the fuss and get another venue” I can in the same manner say to business (or wedding venue) owners to “stop your fuss and don’t have a business then!”
Exactly Richard…But and this is the NB one….If you feel you have a valid case, according to our constitution, seek legal advice and sue! Do not start slanderous campaigns on public media platforms.
This is what I have against this whole sordid situation.
Imagine every person that disagrees with you in your capacity as a business owner, does this to you? Where would you be? And how would the world look like?
I used to work for a wedding venue mentioned above which did not allow Gay weddings. It is one of the hardest things to do – to turn away a delightful couple, simply because of their sexuality. I have no problem with Gay people or gay marraige, but I was not allow to sell weddings to gay people. It is very difficult to choose your beliefs over your job when you have a family to feed. Don not judge the messenger, we’re only doing the best we can.
I just find it abhorrent that parts of the gay community are so vindictive towards people with a different belief. Why are your rights more equal than mine? My beliefs are that you are incorrect in what you do, but at the same time I have to treat you with the same respect I expect to be treated with. If we can all act in that manner and allow others their beliefs, maybe this country can be better for all. Please remember that for me to practice my Christian beliefs, I have to live according to the Bible. I do expect others to allow me the opportunity to practice my beliefs WITHOUT discriminating against me. That can only happen when we treat each other with the necessary respect and dignity. So take the emotion out of it and stick to the facts. Read again what Leanne from the article had to say and then judge whether you are objective regarding this issue.
FYI- I have been looking at JHB wedding venues- I have the contract for Oakfields in front of me, that reads ‘With respect to our affiliation with CESA and the religious beliefs thereof, same sex marriages may not be conducted at Oakfield Farm. If for any reason such a wedding is booked without prior knowledge the date will be released and the deposit credited with immediate effect.”
Second hand information- we have been told other venues that do not allow same sex marriages- Avianto, Morrels, Toadbury Hall, Waterfall Cove.
My husband and I had the same discrimination by a place in midrand. We then went on to have our wedding at Moon & Sixpence and they were superb, accommodating us like every other couple that gets married there. Thanks again MS.
At the end of the day,marriage is a celebration of two people in love. For a beautiful venue that does not discriminate , you should have a look at Blue Horizon Estate. http://www.bluehorizonestate.co.za