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	Comments on: SA LGBTQI students: It&#8217;s complicated!	</title>
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		By: Frans Zeelie		</title>
		<link>https://www.mambaonline.com/2015/05/07/sa-lgbtqi-students-complicated/#comment-848565</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frans Zeelie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2015 13:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.mambaonline.com/2015/05/07/sa-lgbtqi-students-complicated/#comment-848562&quot;&gt;Frans Zeelie&lt;/a&gt;.

*two not to]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[ <p>In reply to <a href="https://www.mambaonline.com/2015/05/07/sa-lgbtqi-students-complicated/#comment-848562">Frans Zeelie</a>.</p>
<p>*two not to</p>
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		<title>
		By: Frans Zeelie		</title>
		<link>https://www.mambaonline.com/2015/05/07/sa-lgbtqi-students-complicated/#comment-848562</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frans Zeelie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2015 13:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.mambaonline.com/?p=52906#comment-848562</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Pardon me for anyone who take offence but I don&#039;t think we can ever accept the term &#039;men who have sex with men&#039; (M2M) as a valid group or term in the general gay community, as the characteristics of this group is pretty much (if not) exactly the same as gay men, or more so that of bisexual men.

Why they should be &#039;specialized&#039; in a new term is above me! The one key to this for me lies in the biological factors (science), namely that we human beings use all five of our general senses when it comes to engaging in sexual activity (including psychological senses - or the &#039;sixth sense&#039;). If you body is accepting of a same-sex experience on some or all of those senses, then you basically are gay or bisexual. We cannot scream sexuality as a &#039;born this way&#039; (biological factors - part or in full) if we cannot take this also in consideration for the &#039;M2M debate&#039;.

Key number to for me lies more in the emotional factors - which will speak for itself inline with the above paragraph.

There is enough sexual &#039;abuse&#039; by some people who wish to use some members of the gay community for sexual pleasures, to even open another door for &#039;acceptance&#039; to that extend is not wise. I&#039;m not saying M2M&#039;s are sexual predators, I just think it is more likely that they will &#039;classify&#039; themselves under this group.

Are we soon going to get the W2W group (woman who have sex with woman)? And then the B2B and T2B and I2I, and then the a and b and z and IIV? And cup cakes who have sex with cup cakes!

We are really pushing labels here which has basically no additional meaning, respect or purpose?

The general term for M2M is a man who have sex with another man, but is not gay, and have no interest in &#039;being gay&#039;. You explain to me how that is not somehow bi or gay (keeping in mind what I&#039;ve already said) then let&#039;s see where that debate goes. I don&#039;t think it will end in much fruits. Perhaps an &#039;M2M Man&#039; should come forward and try to explain this, before I think anyone in this community might consider respect for this group.

I think including them in statistics may mess up the reality for real groups conforming to the LGBTI community, with real LGBTI problems!

Otherwise we may include people who were drunk one night and happened to have a same sex experience (though straight) as part of the LGBTI community; then basically anything can be included, and it will ruin any bit of debate (and fight) the gay community may have put up to gain respect from traditionally straight governments and legal systems. (For example I&#039;m definitely not in the mood to be an activist for drunk people)

I think those M2M&#039;s should be regarded as a separate group all together on their own. Not everything in the world is so simple that it can be categorized under one umbrella. I don&#039;t think LGBTI-activism resources should be dedicated to such a group.

Anyone wish to enlighten me, please do!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[ <p>Pardon me for anyone who take offence but I don&#8217;t think we can ever accept the term &#8216;men who have sex with men&#8217; (M2M) as a valid group or term in the general gay community, as the characteristics of this group is pretty much (if not) exactly the same as gay men, or more so that of bisexual men.</p>
<p>Why they should be &#8216;specialized&#8217; in a new term is above me! The one key to this for me lies in the biological factors (science), namely that we human beings use all five of our general senses when it comes to engaging in sexual activity (including psychological senses &#8211; or the &#8216;sixth sense&#8217;). If you body is accepting of a same-sex experience on some or all of those senses, then you basically are gay or bisexual. We cannot scream sexuality as a &#8216;born this way&#8217; (biological factors &#8211; part or in full) if we cannot take this also in consideration for the &#8216;M2M debate&#8217;.</p>
<p>Key number to for me lies more in the emotional factors &#8211; which will speak for itself inline with the above paragraph.</p>
<p>There is enough sexual &#8216;abuse&#8217; by some people who wish to use some members of the gay community for sexual pleasures, to even open another door for &#8216;acceptance&#8217; to that extend is not wise. I&#8217;m not saying M2M&#8217;s are sexual predators, I just think it is more likely that they will &#8216;classify&#8217; themselves under this group.</p>
<p>Are we soon going to get the W2W group (woman who have sex with woman)? And then the B2B and T2B and I2I, and then the a and b and z and IIV? And cup cakes who have sex with cup cakes!</p>
<p>We are really pushing labels here which has basically no additional meaning, respect or purpose?</p>
<p>The general term for M2M is a man who have sex with another man, but is not gay, and have no interest in &#8216;being gay&#8217;. You explain to me how that is not somehow bi or gay (keeping in mind what I&#8217;ve already said) then let&#8217;s see where that debate goes. I don&#8217;t think it will end in much fruits. Perhaps an &#8216;M2M Man&#8217; should come forward and try to explain this, before I think anyone in this community might consider respect for this group.</p>
<p>I think including them in statistics may mess up the reality for real groups conforming to the LGBTI community, with real LGBTI problems!</p>
<p>Otherwise we may include people who were drunk one night and happened to have a same sex experience (though straight) as part of the LGBTI community; then basically anything can be included, and it will ruin any bit of debate (and fight) the gay community may have put up to gain respect from traditionally straight governments and legal systems. (For example I&#8217;m definitely not in the mood to be an activist for drunk people)</p>
<p>I think those M2M&#8217;s should be regarded as a separate group all together on their own. Not everything in the world is so simple that it can be categorized under one umbrella. I don&#8217;t think LGBTI-activism resources should be dedicated to such a group.</p>
<p>Anyone wish to enlighten me, please do!</p>
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