ARE WE LESBOPHOBES?
‘We like cock around here’, and ‘don’t you think he’s well-hung?’ a gay guy bursts out (directed at me), pointing at another’s penis at a mostly-moffie gathering I was invited to recently. A collective titter went up into the testosterone-riddled crowd.
‘Uhh…du-u-u-h’, I thought, not the first time I’d heard similar comments at other male-driven socials. But was he stating the obvious emphatically and loudly because he himself wasn’t convinced of what he liked? Was he just being a melodramatic queen? Or was he trying to provoke some type of response from me? Maybe he wanted to shock me – the only lesbian within earshot – into submission or incite some kind of deep, anti-male sentiment he was certain lurked silently within me.
Of course, I merely tittered in response along with everyone else, at the time.
Although it wasn’t the first time I’d been left wondering, those couple of utterances got me thinking about other similar experiences I, and those of my friends, have had that left us with the subtle whiff of lesbophobia at work. Yes, it does exist between the sub-cultures of gay men and women, no matter how much more comfortable it may be to deny it.
While what motivated the above scenario may have been hard to pin down, how many of you women have had experiences involving gay men’s comments that are derogatory, yet subtle, and aimed at you? But left little or no room for your response, because of their slick, humorous and lightning speed delivery. You know, those remarks, which unapologetically carry elements of hostility, misogyny, resentment and that inevitable bitchy tone.
At the other overt extreme and particularly popular amongst comedians and cabaret queens proudly mouthing off Barbra Streisand songs are the overtly misogynistic, lesbian-bashing jokes.
Many moons ago I used to haunt The Meat Market (i.e. – Cape Town’s Bronx). Once I returned to my stool from dancing and two guys together at the bar became very hostile very fast toward me, telling me the chair didn’t have my name on it and this was a venue for men, anyway – not straight women! (I’m quite femme to look at). That was one of my more overt experiences.
“Fact is; there are many more gay men out there with a close, straight female friend and comparatively fewer with a lesbian one…”
When I saw responses to an article about the Knysna Loerie Festival on Mambagirl.com by Jeanine Cameron, I knew I had to explore this further. Many of them, including others I knew who had been there, commented about feeling sidelined, marginalized and acutely aware of the misogyny present.
With just two Festival events for women out of 100 confirming this, one of the organisers was told ‘there was no interest in even attempting to arrange lesbian events’ for the festival.
I wondered how much effort behind the scenes had consciously gone into keeping women out. Or was it more a case of: just ignore the lesbians and they’ll go away or be naturally discouraged from arriving in the first place. A sad irony, since Hot Salsa Media, responsible for surveys on the power of the Pink Rand, found local lesbians earn as much as hetero men, with 25% earning more. Their survey also showed one in three lesbians is a successful entrepreneur, with one in four gay men being an entrepreneur!
What all this goes to show, in my opinion, is that no matter how much intelligence, logic or filled with marketing-savvy the organisers believe themselves to have or be, prejudices (which I interpret as deep fear) always end up taking control and having power over a better judgement. Even if this should mean financially shooting themselves in the foot.
A friend of mine has a particular theory on what this lesbophobic intolerance means. And she’s not alone. She believes all homosexual men hate lesbians – whether acknowledged or not. Her theory runs along these lines: Because gay men have unresolved issues with women, they often choose not to have women as friends. But when they do they’ll primarily opt for heterosexual women friends, rather than lesbians.
They feel safer, she believes, with straight women who they can wield some influence and subsequent power and control over, as opposed to lesbians, who they generally cannot wield much over at all and therefore feel threatened by and fearful of.
And how do you react when you’re afraid? Defensively and offensively. I’m totally in support of the ‘whys’ in this theory, but wouldn’t go as far as to say all gay men hate lesbians.
Then I’d also have to say all lesbians hate gay men. And that wouldn’t be accurate in my life experience or observations.
Fact is; there are many more gay men out there with a close, straight female friend and comparatively fewer with a lesbian one, of those who choose to befriend women.
To be fair, I’ve also come across more than a few militant, man-hating (read: fearing) lesbians in my time. A gay woman I know openly acknowledges being “anti-male because it’s inbred in me, but I don’t go around calling them ‘whores and bitches’ as they do women ”.
I was involved with a more covert anti-male operator years ago. She had a very soft, but fairly high-pitched voice and was a quiet, intense kind of person. But when we went out socially together, I could almost feel her putting on her invisible armour.
One time it wasn’t expected that men would arrive at an all-women social. When she spotted them at the entrance her entire body language took on an aggressive stance, she dropped her voice by several decibels and I could almost hear her inaudibly growling at the invasion. I was mildly amused.
How about this? Next time you’re on the receiving end of a biting aside about your body, behaviour, dress or sub-culture, ask him what he’s really afraid of? His straight female friend may well laugh it off or meet misogyny with silent acceptance – as our sisters have for centuries. As proud lesbians, are we going to choose to do it any differently?
Share your opinion, story and/or remarks in the comment forum below.
A matter of taste. The tendency of gay men to prefer straight woman as friends is fairly simple to explain: Both gay men and straight woman are interested or attracted to the same things – MEN! (and some even share other interest like handbags, shopping, shoes etc.)
Why this big issue?? Allow each person to choose who they want to hangout with.
After-all: “What I feel for you or think of your has nothing to do with you!!”
(Ponder carefully on this one before you comment)
its all about who you like… . Even though I have also experienced a few nasty gay men, I have also experienced a few nasty lesbians, and I am a lesbian! These are just nasty people. Nothing to do with their sexuality. Surely!?
Oddly enough, I have a few straight men friends! I have a few lesbian friends and a couple of hettie women friends too. I love them all for who they are and the value they add to my life.
Surely, this is more about who they are as people and their values than who they sleep with.
hate the hate, not the hater. I totally agree with you. My friends are pretty mixed with regards to their sexuality, race and gender. But there are still a lot of bigots out there. Just because you are part of an oppressed group, it does not automatically mean that you aren’t capable of oppressing in turn.
Response. Well said! These ‘bigots’ as you put it -are those I wanted to explore. Indeed, some of the world’s most oppressed peoples (collectively and individually) are those who somehow don’t get ‘it’ and may feel totally justified oppressing (or exercising prejudices) in other areas of their lives! I believe this is a human nature thing which, if left unexamined and unhealed, can and does affect us (and our sub-culture) personally.
Riiiiggghhhhht…. As a gay man, I found this article quite annoying to read. I could also generalise about the ‘bull-dykes’ who give you filthy looks as you innocently chat with their girlfriends, or the lipsticks who barely acknowledge your existence when amongst their chick friends.
Out of my ‘close’ female friends, two are lesbian, one is bisexual and the last is straight and I certainly don’t feel the need to hold some kind of power over any of them.
The anecdotes in this piece are also quite subversive. What’s to say that the gay guy at the ‘mostly moffie’ gathering isn’t simply a crude bastard who enjoys shock value amongst ALL genders? Why hadn’t lesbian event organisers made a greater effort to participate at the Pink Loerie festival?
Both gays and lesbians need to take their heads out of their asses and stop looking for a reason to hate each other. I’m also sick of the gay-elitist attitudes that the ‘pink’ community has towards straight people, but that’s another topic.
Tit-4-tat!!!. We all succumb to the temptation of presenting ourselves as victims of other people’s insensitivity toward our “differentness”. So some queen made an insensitive remark towards a lesbian. Big deal! I , a gay man, have also been treated that way by a lesbian couple at a bar in Mellville. They just wouldn’t stop complaining about how many “moffies” there were there that night and then proceeded to insult a more feminine looking young guy (who looked about 19 years old) because of the colourful clothes he wore.
I only dislike those lesbians who think that they are more “MAN” than I am and who trat me as though I am somehow inferior to them. Most lesbians I have met, and the one I work with every day, have a special place in my heart because of their warmth and genuineness. Its just such a pity there are a few rotten moffies and dykes who just refuse to get along. Maybe we should just send them off to Antarctica so that we can live in peace.
why misinterpret?. Hey Jordi– For whatever reason you may have, you’ve misinterpreted what I wrote! Not once did I mention feeling victimised/insulted/offended by such comments in my personal experiences. I merely questioned what the motives could possible be (pse re-read story!). You’ve used the word ‘insensitive’–presumably what you felt re your own Melville experienced. Yes, that feeling of dislike you have when you believe yourself to be treated in an ‘inferior’ way by certain lesbians is one shared by both lesbians and gay men about each other! One of the purpose of the article was to highlight this -obviously from the lesbian’s perspective – and get some debate going. And it has!
Response. Well done you have the right idea…..
There is a place for every one you just have to find your spot.
I am a gay man and i have no problem with anyone so long as they have found there spot and know who they are!!!! Do you???? once you do these thing just pass bey.
Hate-hater love -lover we all are in the same road of just tryin to be ourselves. Both men and women in the gay community should rather look at the person and noy what they wearing, looklike or what is fucking boring in your mind.
Yes I am a gay man have mixed friends women , men gay and straight and sometimes gay men are just so bitchy and the girls try to be the best butch man you can find I now of a lot of gay men and women that say I do not like lesbians and the women that say I do not like gay guys you now what they have problems with themselves they have never respected love themselves that is why they can not stand the other.
One thing girls and boys should now is girls boys will always bemore men than you ever could be and guys the girls will always be more girl than you ever be so let as just give everyone his/her place in the sun. See the person not the sex
we are so call proud about or lifes
misogyny…. My problem with most lesbians that I have met and socialised with , is that they quickly assume a ‘dominant’ role when around gay men, as if I have now become less of a man by being gay. I would accept it though with a pinch of salt, had that attitude been from a straight edible man…
This seems a bit harsh. This article seems a bit harsh…
and sterotypical…
as if all of us.. gay people and lesbians dont have enough rubbish to deal with from the straight community? we now have problems of our own?
I will agree that gay people and lesbians.. maybe.. are a bit more hostile than hetrosexual people, but does that not seem a natural reaction from the “burden” we’ve had to keep? it could be a reason as to why some are insecure (as the article said) or bitchy?
So because there have been a few spats between the girls and the boys… its now a major issue? and we are the bad ones?
Maybe its people adding to the idea that we hate each other…*ahem*.. that makes the situation worse…
i have a lesbian friend and she and I get on extremly well, proving this article to be based on personal experiences… not reality..
Sigh……
Cant we all just get along ^.^?
too close for comfort?. In an ideal world of humans without issues, gay people would have no need to be offensive/defensive with each other…would they? Subsequently no such experiences would exist. And therefore not warrant writing about. But we don’t yet live in an ideal world…
My ‘personal experience’ is my reality –as yours is for you. Except mine also happens to be shared by other women, too! And the stuff that then needs exploring. Incidentally, one of the closest people to me in my life left to live overseas several years – he was a magnificent human being…and a gay male!
…. Car les jolis pingouins
Ont tr?s peur des pingouines
Et les vilaines pingouines
D?testent les pingouins
Juliette Greco
tolerance. I think we need to acknowledge, that when it comes down to it, gays and lesbians don’t actually have all that much in common, except for the fact that we love and have sex with people of the same gender. We generally (and I know I’m generalising, that’s why I’m saying “generally”) don’t like the same music (compare Madonna to Tegan and Sara lately?), we don’t have the same tastes in decor / design, we don’t generally frequent the same places etc etc etc.
HOWEVER, what I think both sides need to practice is their TOLERANCE of each other. We demand tolerance from straight people, and yet when it comes to our own brothers and sisters we think it’s ok to be intolerant. I think many times that the way lesbians speak about gays, and vice versa is so despicable, that if it came out of the mouth of a heterosexual, I’d be lining up to complain at the Human Rights Commission. Yes, gays and lesbians are really quite different, but I think we need to learn to celebrate that difference in a respectful way, instead of slagging each other off at every given opportunity. I love my gay male friends deeply. And because of that I made a concious decision to stop deriding them at every turn. I hope that one day they’ll do the same… I mean how many checked shirt jokes do we have to endure…? Let’s start speaking respectfully to each other.
Lesbians. I have no problem with our lesbian sisters. In our gay church HUMCC in Mayfair, we worship side by side. Although at functions e.g. birthday parties, I notice that they do not sit together with the males.
Years ago, me & my partner befriended 2 lesbians in the same block of flats. We had good social times together. Just one thing though, I’m still wondering why they groped at our dicks when we went swimming in the pool? This was funny behaviour, but I know one can’t generalise.
I give up. I wouldnt even know where to start in response to the article and the comments left here…
Some make a point some dont.
Fortunatly for me, I as a gay man, Have a truly great group of friends.. Including a truly irreplaceable best friend of mine who is lesbian.
the truth of the matter is, all of our lives take as to different place, different friends, being portuguese myself, the odd factor in my friends circle is none of us are south african by blood, and so.. there in its own leaves room for interpretation, some may assume I’m xenophobic even.. or simply, these are the friends i found and grew to love.
But it is true, there is Gay vs Lesbian homophobia
as there is Lesbian vs Gay homophobia
Its a pain in the ass to put it bluntly, for it seems, we are no more tolerent than our heterosexual ounterparts, not as we may think we are.
Perhaps due to our own suffering due to intolerence, we find tolerence with some prejudices, but we prove ourselves, at the very least partial in some form to prejudice against one or another group, sub-group, race, gender, People.
I am a bar tender, at one of pretoria’s most popular gay clubs, and i have to deal with intolerent lesbians, lost heterosexuals a bitchy queens all the time..
The point i really want to make is.. At the end of the day arn’t we all gay, i mean in the earliest sense of the word.. NOT HETEROSEXUAL
so why are people in our own community wasting their time with weakening the foundations of our own community?
However my optimism for change is bleak, i have little faith in the world left, some will change, that i can be thankful for, but many wont.. and thats the truth..
Shellee-Kim Gold.. Good articl though, hopefully you wont allow yourself to be put off by those who would leave you feeling put off, by certain sub groups of OUR community…